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Ga Tech's recruiting disadvantage (Warning: rant alert)

Here is a story from the News & Observer today. This is the lead story. Not the sports section, mind you. This on the front page.  Marvin Austin was the catalyst for the investigation into the UNC athetic department last summer.  He is now trying to make the NY Giants team as a rookie.

Austin entered UNC as a highly recruited 5-star defensive lineman.  In high school Marvin was not a standout student.  His grades and test scores could never have qualified him for admission to UNC, except that he was a football player on scholarship.  What makes this story interesting is how UNC treated Austin upon admission.  He had a poor score on the writing portion of his SAT that barely allowed him to be admitted.  Yet, in his first semester at UNC he was allowed to take a senior level course in African Studies.  This is not all bad.  But, in this case, the professor was the same one who failed to catch the flagrant plagiarism in Michael McAdoo's  term paper.

Star-divide

Marvin made a B+ in the course.  He took two other African Studies classes and made B- in both.  He also took remedial math and English classes.  His partial transcript was included in the print edition, but was removed from the online story.  Marvin was a rising Senior on the football field and had not taken a real college level Math class through his Sophomore year.  According to the transcript, he had a 2.21 GPA.  UNC refused to comment or release his official up to date transcript.

I am a proud resident of the State of North Carolina.  I love it here and this embarrasses me deeply.  My 18-year old is making her college decision and decided her grades (top 15% with 3.90 average) and ACT scores (23 composite) are not good enough for UNC.  She made an A in honors Physics last year and I know she is smart enough to do well at any school, but the UNC admissions process appears too difficult for her.  Yet, Marvin Austin got in and stayed eligible for three seasons.  That is, until he screwed it up by Tweeting how much fun he was having courtesy of a pro agent.

To their credit, UGA cleaned up much of this crap after the Jan Kemp scandal.  I had no idea a school like UNC allowed this to happen. UNC has a great reputation.  At least, until now.

I am sure we have majors, and professors, the athletic department looks at with greater favor and points their marginal students in their direction.  Some of you are current or recent students.  Are remedial course taught at Tech?  Are they a part of the core curriculum?  This story hit me the wrong way this morning.  I know we will never have the fan base of UNC or UGA.  We are always working up hill in recruiting.  Our coaches have to work harder getting kids admitted and keeping them eligible.  We all accept that as part of being a fan at Ga Tech.  Duke and Wake Forest have the same problem. 

Am I the only one pissed about this?  Maybe I am upset because it comes on the heels of the huge scandal in Miami.  Also, I have not gotten over us having to vacate the ACC Championship because it's not certain Bay Bay's cousin gave him the clothes.  I agree with NCAA President Mark Emmert that fundamental changes are required.  Maybe we can start by making the college athletics feel more like amateur sports and not like pro sports.   Maybe ESPN is not as important as they like to think.

Whew.  I feel better now.

 

Updated:  One of my UNC friends alerted me to an error in my post.  Eng 101 and 102 are, in fact, college level classes.  The Eng 100 class is remedial for anyone making less than 460 on the SAT Writing test.

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It just comes down to what you think the fundamental purpose of collegiate athletics is for. Is it pure entertainment where the athletes just need to be herded through basket-weaving, general studies, etc.? Or is it a chance to offer a person a meaningful education because of their unique abilities that they would’ve never had the chance to attain on an even “academic” playing field?

“We may not make a university student out of him, but if we can teach him to read and write, maybe he can work at the post office rather than as a garbage man when he gets through with his athletic career.”

That’s the UGA philosophy and it’s a very simple-minded, white man’s burden-esque type philosophy. I think that kids who can barely function academically should not be on college campuses. That’s my opinion. And their lack of academic fortitude should not have to be addressed by athletic departments. It should be addressed in grade school.

If the kid can’t meet substandard academic standards, they should go the community college route and transfer in just like everyone else.

I write stuff From the Rumble Seat.

by BirdGT on Aug 21, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

You have stated the crux of the matter

but I might add some schools with great academic reputations set up special classes for football players because they like to have a good team around to entertain the smart students. Remember Michigan had practically a separate curriculum for football players.

I have always appreciated the fact that Tech athletes by and large are well rounded people who can succeed in more than one area.

by Atlanta's original team on Aug 22, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

This may be heresy and I don't mean to start a flame war...

…but this is a controversial topic and has been struck from the Hive every time I have brought it up.

Could/should Tech have some easier majors to make recruiting easier?

Now, before we go any farther, I am not talking about “joke” majors and I am not talking about admitting academic nonqualifiers nor people who need to take the JUCO route for whatever reason. I’m talking about diversifying Tech’s curriculum to make recruiting easier.

While I have been thinking about this for a while, what really brought this to a head for me was a comment my georgie-fan brother said to me: “What’s Tech’s problem with recruiting? Stanford doesn’t seem to have any problems getting quality players and winning…?” Stanford is a well-respected university. How does Stanford do it?

Well, I looked at Stanford’s website. Besides the STEM majors that Stanford is famous for, there are a bunch of easier majors like sociology, various ethnic and gender studies, and even a design-your-own-major.

Am I suggesting those for Tech? Absolutely NOT!

But—are there some majors that would fit Tech’s general mission but not be as demanding as our current curriculum? Things like technical writing (if you are in IT, you know that tech writing is NO JOKE), scientific journalism (maybe with some sports journalism electives—take that, AUC), sports medicine and physiology, things like that.

This would at least stop the competing coaches who borrow a calc book from the math department and use it to scare off recruits for whom they are competing with Tech.

Would this approach help recruiting without hurting Tech’s esteemed academic mission?

And, secondly, would the Board of Regents let us do that ;-)

by jabbajacket on Aug 21, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Firstly, the BOR wouldn't let us

Secondly, that’d be the tail wagging the dog, and that is just wrong. If the academic departments want to expand their major options to better fulfill the aspirations of their students, then go ahead and do it. But they should not expand at the behest of the athletic association.

by mjacksongt on Aug 22, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't this the point

of Management? It’s no “recreational studies,” but it’s not engineering either. I’d rather have our students be able to get a management degree and live with the program that we currently have than rise to the ranks of FSU or VT (or UNC?) by putting the name Georgia Institute of Technology on a joke degree.

by acedarney on Aug 22, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stanford football has been a joke...

Your UGA friend is an idiot (and you shouldn’t have listened to him), Standford football ahs been a joke until last 2 years. From 2002 – 2008 their combined record was 25 – 25, with no winning record, a 2-9 year and a 1-11 year.

Standford’s been good the last 2 years because of Harbaugh, Andrew Luck, and Toby Gerhart (last year).

by Beernutts on Aug 23, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

This came up on "The Atlanta Constipational and Urinal" a few weeks back.

Some pig sticker started a flame war when it showed that most of the Tech Seniors who were graduating were getting Management Degrees (there was a Swimmer getting a PhD in Math or Physics).

I really wanted to point out the corollary over at the Clarke County Cow College where their Graduates were entering the work force with such gut busting Degrees as: Fashion Merchandising, Physical Education and Training, Housing (?) and Sports Marketing. It looked like the whole Golf Team was getting degrees in Insurance in Real Estate which is a Real Major, as I know from several bankers, and insurance guys in our Quarterback Club.

Do we want to add: Criminal Justice, Probation and Corrections, Fashion Merchandising, and Housing (yes, they have this degree), and Household Economics (Junior Year focuses on Balancing Your Checkbook 3001, 3002, and 3003!)?

No. I won’t be happy to slum out the Institute and cheapen the hard work that our Student’s do to graduate by adding an M.R.S. in Pre-Wed, and B.A. Power Tool Technology, just so we can get some Thugs who aren’t looking to make a dent in their education.

As I’m want to point out to the pig stickers, even as a B.S. Economics, I had a full year of Calculus and a Quarter of Statistics (yes, that long ago), as well as Drownproofing (should be required), and 2 years of Science.

Yep, we will always be recruiting Uphill.

by DressHerInWhiteAndGold on Aug 21, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

We engineers can make fun of the M-Train...

…but just like criticizing your momma or beating up on your little brother, nobody else can.

And any Tech MSM or MBA who wants to make fun of my Terry MBA most certainly can (Tech didn’t have a night program at the time I went back to school). But at least that puts me ahead of most of the Bulldog Nation, with an actual degree from UGA.

I’ve made the point many times that georgie fans can make fun of the number of management majors on the Tech football team when they have an equal number of Terry BBA majors on their team. Or, to put it another way, UGA’s toughest major is equal to our “easiest” (YMMV).

by jabbajacket on Aug 21, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, we make fun of Management

but it’s still a degree from the 32nd ranked business school in the country. It’s not a degree in “Communications”.

by CraigT on Aug 22, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

It anyone has some free time...

May I propose the Engineers Cup…

Awarded to the BCS conference school with the highest percentage of scholarship players majoring in Engineering.

(Strategically eliminating the service academies)

by J W R on Aug 23, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Georgia Tech is unique in many ways...

One of many is that the most common major for athletes is the second most common major on campus, not some “fringe” major created for athletes.

Management is second only to Mechanical Engineering, and has almost ten percent of the undergraduate student body with 1,323 out of 13,750 students (2010 Mini Fact Book, pages 10-11).

Quite frankly, if I had a son who considered himself a pro prospect in any sport, I would steer him towards management as a major whether he was considering Tech or not. The background in investments, business law, and finance would put him in a better position to actually keep the big bucks if he succeeds in the pros or to build a meaningful career in the real world if he doesn’t.

Another key factor in recruiting is that Tech is a legitimately challenging school. The freshman class of 2004 was the first where 80% of the cohort graduated within six years. There is a hard floor for recruiting in that the student-athlete must be able to do college level work.

The AJC’s study in 2008 showed Tech football players averaged 1028 on the SAT while the average all of the schools was 941. Tech’s average is pretty much the average for everyone who took the test, while the rest of the football players scored at the 33rd percentile for men. That means that half of football players scored in the bottom third of all students who took the test (actually, over half – the median will be below the average).

I’m not sure if adding majors would have any major benefit. I would wager that they would still be Bachelor of Science degrees and not Bachelor of Arts, so they would still have the same math and science requirements as Management. I imagine the Board of Regents would regard any degree that didn’t have the math and science requirements as “not consistent with our mission” and deny it.

by J W R on Aug 21, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions  

That SAT stat bothers me

It tells me that there is no way that the majority of our football players got in without some form of special help.

by mjacksongt on Aug 22, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

This what GT reported for last year's incoming freshmen,

The middle 50% range:

SAT Critical Reading: 590 – 690
SAT Math: 650 – 740
SAT Writing: 590 – 690

That means the football team average SAT of 1028 would be in the bottom 25% of incoming freshmen. While not happy about it, I’m not surprised.

I also think it’s possible for students who are not naturally gifted to excel in the classroom at any university. They have to be adept at setting goals, establishing the proper criteria for meeting those goals, and following through with a plan for success. My 18 year old falls in this group. Her ACT scores are not wonderful, but she performs in the classroom and makes mostly A’s with a B thrown in here & there. No C’s. Ever.

Athletes at this level tend to be gifted at setting goals and meeting them. Otherwise, they would have failed earlier in their athletic career. They are also pretty good at budgeting their time. So, I am not surprised that athletes who are less gifted are making themselves successful in college classrooms. My complaint in the previous post was not directed at Marvin Austin. His goal before he reached UNC was to play in the NFL. One of the steps in the plan he developed required that he stay eligible to play for the Tar Heels. While not a good student, he was making do with the parameters he and the school defined for him.

As many of the posts here suggest, the big question is whether the school should treat these students differently simply because they are gifted athletes.

BTW, there are lots of people who think GT students are not well rounded. They all accept that we are good in Math, but that when it comes to less technical subjects, well, we come up a bit short.

Here is the SAT data reported by UGA for last year’s incoming class:

SAT Critical Reading: 560 – 660
SAT Math: 560 – 670
SAT Writing: 560 – 660

I am not saying UGA doesn’t have smart kids enrolled, but even their critical reading and writing scores are well below the average GT student.

Finally, how does a kid with 941 total on the reading/math portions of the SAT make it in college? That is a huge gap to close.

Where do we come from? What are we? Where are we going?

by orientalnc on Aug 22, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won't lie and say I haven't thought about it.

It’s just not likely to have it happen. As bad as we would love to have a football team that wins 3 NCs in a row and makes the SEC look like a bunch of chumps, the Institute would place that way below sustained academic integrity on their list of priorities.

Also, as a current student (ISyE major), it would disappoint me to know that others (regardless of circumstance) were being held to significantly lower standards academically. That’s what makes me proud to go here as opposed to georgie or Auburn or what have you, is that every single person here gets challenged in one way or another. There’s really no sense coming here for an MRS degree or anything because nothing is worth the workload in that sense.

The Church of Paul Johnson - There's not much to it outside of whooping ass and giving haters the finger. To HELL With georgie!

by LilBroey700 on Aug 21, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions  

1990

Gives me hope that Tech wouldn’t have to change all that much to have a monster year.

by GT_Jason on Aug 21, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Math

The simple fact, and it’s not going away, is that every GT major requires at least one term of calculus and at least two terms of mathematics to graduate. Student athletes generally will need three or four, since they’ll start in precalculus before taking the two management math courses. The least well-prepared start in “Learning Support” mathematics, which is basically fifth grade math through basic algebra crammed into one term. There are also LS options for reading and writing. Those courses count toward being full-time, but that’s it. Precalculus can be taken for a grade (but a lot of SAs take it pass/fail), but it doesn’t satisfy any degree requirements. Based on pressure from the AA, CoM will allow it to count as a free elective, I believe.

by NoDak_jacket on Aug 21, 2011 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Tech needs to start a program

to show people that math just isn’t as hard they make it out to be. Then we would get all of the players (/women!)

Paul Johnson: not giving a crap about what you have to say since 1987.

by GTNate on Aug 21, 2011 11:41 PM EDT reply actions  

As an NC resident as well

Send your kid to somewhere outside of UNC Chapel Hill. It is not a university that I would ever want to send a child of mine to, not in slightest. The arrogance, and the overall smugness of Chapel Hill and neighboring town Carrboro are hard enough to deal with, but having to hear constantly why they are the cream of the crop, even while all of this is going on (this is a quite small sample size) is to much to bear. Can’t stand that school

/rant off

Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano

by AParker on Aug 22, 2011 9:17 AM EDT reply actions  

More thoughts on difficult majors

There is one intangible missing from this discussion but I am not sure how to say it succinctly and cover all of the nuances. Almost any major can be demanding if the professor is demanding and the college has high academic standards. What makes some of these majors jokes at the football factories is that they set the bar so low a student can graduate and still not be able to write an essay or but together a coherent thought. That is, if they even graduate.

On a tangential thought, even the Ivy League used to attract and recruit good football players. Now that I live in Ivy League country it is interesting to hear how that culture describes their decline in football. A series of decisions were made by the NCAA over the decades that made it harder and harder for them to field good teams. The final straw was the last division restructuring that said stadiums had to be a certain size or you good not play division 1. Up until then there were still some really good athletes who were interested in academic rigor. Anyone remember Calvin Hill from Yale?

Anyway, I suspect that Tech would and should be wary about expanding the curriculum too much lest they be tempted to offer, not easy majors, but majors which were deliberately set up to be easy. There is a difference. Keeping the mission of the school at the forefront is what any good academic institution should be about.

by Atlanta's original team on Aug 22, 2011 10:26 AM EDT reply actions  

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