Ultimate Sporting City Final 4: Detroit vs. New York
by BirdGT on Jun 29, 2010 3:30 PM EDT
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PrintBoston defeated Miami in the first Final 4 Match Up. New York and Detroit have dispatched their opponents with ease. New York dispatched of Pittsburgh in round 1 and quickly fended off Dallas in round 2. Detroit drove a freight train straight through Tampa and Los Angeles. Now, the two Vegas favorites square off in the semifinals...
DETROIT
Brendan From Old Virginia fills us in on the high points of Detroit Sports History from a Detroit Fan's point of view:
Well, as you know, Detroit's history is a long one - you have to go all the way back to the turn of the 20th century to find the first of many good times. The Tigers were one of the American League's dominant teams in the later part of the decade, winning three straight pennants with baseball's first modern-era megastar, Ty Cobb. And even earlier than that, Fielding Yost's Michigan Wolverines had begun dominating the college football scene with his Point-A-Minute squads. The first ever college bowl game was the 1902 Rose Bowl, and it was also almost the last Rose Bowl; the Tournament of Roses organizers decided to give some other activities a try after Michigan laid such a demoralizing thrashing to local favorites Stanford that the Stanford team asked to end the game with eight minutes to go.
Anybody outside of Michigan calling themselves the City of Champions is an impostor: the title was originally Detroit's in the 1930s, as the three extant major league teams each reeled off league championships. The Lions were 1935 champions, the Tigers won the AL pennant in '34 and '35 and the '35 World Series, and the Red Wings took home the '36 and '37 Stanley Cup. Native son and war hero Joe Louis famously beat Max Schmeling in 1938* after taking the heavyweight boxing crown in 1937.
Speaking of the Lions, believe it or not there was a time they were the kings of the NFL jungle. Between 1951 and 1957 they racked up a 55-27-2 record, went to four NFL championship games, and won three of them. The Wings were just as dominant: between 1947 and 1956 they went to 7 of 9 Stanley Cup Finals and brought home the Cup four times.
Misopogon makes an epic return for this Final 4 filling us in on some relatively sad moments of Michigan sporting history:
Worst moment ever: we don't talk about it. We call it "The Horror." If you don't know what we're talking about, good; let's keep it that way.
Worst moment we can talk about without head 'splosions: "Football Armageddon," when over a 24-hour span Michigan lost Bo Schembechler to heart disease, and then lost a football game to a Buckeye team that featured Troy Smith, Lex Luthor, Baby Jaga, Sauron, M. Bison, cancer, Shai'tan, Lavos and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. In 2007, when deity-existence questioning was definitively on the line, Michigan still lost again thanks to the deserving four-year starters all playing through horrible injuries.
In 1958, after quarterback Bobby Layne had led the Lions to three NFL championship games, the organization traded him away because of an injury. Layne promised the Lions wouldn't win for 50 years.* It totally worked. Said Donovan McNabb: "you can do this?" Had he said they wouldn't win in 50 years (i.e. wouldn't win in 2008) he would have been downright prophetic.
Running back Billy Sims was the Lions' first overall pick in 1980, and led the team to the playoffs in 1982 and '83. Then he blew out his knee in 1984 and that was that.
2006 World Series. Okay, Braves fans, imagine it's your team in 1991, you've gone from worst to first behind iconic, beloved rookies and young awesome pitchers and brand new traditions in a season that must have been touched by magic. Then imagine Glavine and Smoltz and Avery suddenly becoming error machines against the worst team to ever go to the World Series. Then imagine not having the rest of the 90s to make up for it.
Worst season by a Detroit team: So a guy walks into a bar with his dog. The bartender's like "you can't come in here with a dog," but our guy's like "c'mon he's a huge Lions fan, just let us watch the game." So the bartender lets them in. Some time later, the Lions score a field goal. The dog jumps up and down and barks and chases his tail in excitement. A little later after that, the Lions scored a touchdown, and the dog starts going nuts, running around the bar and giving high-fives to all of the other patrons, licking people, and generally yipping like mad. And the bartender's like "you weren't kidding: That dog is a huge Lions fan! What does he do when they win?" "Dunno," says our guy. "I've only had him for [X amount of time]."
By the morning of September 27, 2010, X was up to 1 year, 10 months and 16 days, and included an entire season (2008) without a win for our NFL team.
Still, for many, the Tigers' putrid 43-119 effort (which ended with a six-game winning streak FYI) in 2003 was probably harder to live through, especially with local '80s hero Alan Trammell serving as sacrificial managerial lamb for a team nicknamed "The Replacements" (though few players on that team actually achieved replacement-level).
If you thought the end of the 2008 Mets season was the most remarkable crash in history, you need have only waited a year, as the '09 Tigers became the answer to every trivia question to ask "Xth team to be up Y games with Z games left in the season, and not go to the playoffs?" The collapse ended with a 13-inning 163rd game considered among the best games of baseball ever played, which we lost. (I was there!)
No city knows how to snatch defeat from the hands of victory like Detroit, or perhaps more accurately, officials of Detroit games. Most sports towns have a tinfoil hat society of one sort or another who preach of corrupt officials, rigged leagues and seriously pissed of deities. Ours is unique in that that they sometimes actually show up wearing actual tin hats:
NEW YORK
Last time we spoke with Chris from the Nova Blog, he was telling us about Philly fans massive hatred for all things Villanova. In the course of the e-mails, I learned that he was a big time New York fan and from the City itself so I decided to inquire into his NYC fandom. Chris tells me that New York has experienced great deals of success but recently New Yorkers would cite the following:
The high-point for me was the Football Giants winning it all in 2008. It was a miraculous one, and for what felt like the first time in a while, NY was a severe underdog. Not that we have great teams all the time, but it was a collection of scrappy players and a scrappy team, just the kind of team everyone loves rooting for. Running and defense. Doesn't get any better than that!
The 1994 Rangers come in a close second for me. I had the luxury of attending Game 7 and the image of Messier jumping up and down on the ice after the win will stick with me forever.
Chris is also a Mets fan (BOOOO!). And he tells us that the Mets have been a major source of heartache for his sports psyche:
The lowest point was easily the Mets collapse in 07. Yeah, they did it again in 08, but that really shattered a fanbase that has experienced hard luck throughout their history. I'm a die-hard Mets fan and I still find it hard to sustain excitement (although this year is definitely helping). Because of that meltdown, it feels like I'm walking around waiting for an anvil to fall on me.
I'd have to venture that Yankees fans were pretty down when the Red Sox came back from 0-3 and won the 2004 ALCS, which is easily countered by the billions of World Series trophies sitting in Yankees Stadium.
ALL TIMES SERIES RECORD
I had to add this 'cause I had it in the last poll. NYC and Detroit are very close in all time records against each other. NYC leads 1629-1566 over the City of Detroit in head to head match ups. Interestingly enough, the pro teams have met 56 times in the playoffs and are tied 28-28.
Alright folks, you've heard from Michiganders and New Yorkers. Feel free to spit venom at the opposing fans and prove why Detroit or New York is better than the other city and deserves to advances to the Finals.
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Not even close
New York has two of everything, and almost each was successful at some point. On the other hand, Detroit has the Red Wings.
I agree
I think Detroit probably has great sports fans but New York is a helluva lot better sports town. More to do. More winning tradition (owners committed to winning).
I write stuff From the Rumble Seat.
College Sports
Detroit is loyal to a full set of pro sports and the city + surrounding area is heavily invested in college sports as well. This is not true of the New York area, where college basketball is somewhat important, but college football is ignored. A city as big as New York should be able to invest itself in collegiate and pro sports, while Detroit is committed to everything.
I agree.
And how can you New Yorkers explain the relative putrid performance of the Rangers, Islanders, Jets, and Knicks, of late? That’s right, they can’t.
Detroit’s number of championships, combined with its unwavering passion (we all know New Yorkers are bandwagoners), easily make it the best Sporting City in the country.
Key: "Almost" each
Whereas for Detroit, you can get rid of “almost.”
by MaizeAndBlueWahoo on Jun 29, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted for Detroit
surprisingly because of hockey. Brian from BCI should be proud
by Winfield Featherston on Jun 29, 2010 6:17 PM EDT reply actions
I voted for Detroit, because I think Boston has a better chance against them than New York.
BC Interruption, SBN's Boston College Eagles blog
Not likely
Considering that Detroit is destroying New York and that Detroit has dominated the vote total for every matchup, your logic may be somewhat faulty.
Detroit over New York?
DETROIT OVER NEW YORK?!
by Atlanta's original team on Jun 30, 2010 8:07 AM EDT reply actions
the poll is purposely open for 3 days so...
maybe the New Yorkers will rally when Detroit runs out of people.
I write stuff From the Rumble Seat.
Hey, now...
which city needed a multi-hundred billion dollar bailout again? Not I, said the Motown (not that we didn’t beg for one too).
A week ago Saturday lastly
My ears were assaulted quite ghastly
When I clicked on a link
Before stopping to think
I wound up at a song by Rick Astley
Good luck with that
New York needs to almost sextuple their vote total to get to where Detroit is now.
Besides
they are too busy going to sporting events to vote.
by Atlanta's original team on Jun 30, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Photo
By the way, the tinfoil hats photo you see there should set off rockets for anyone familiar with the Detroit blogosphere. A good portion of the Red Wings blogging All Stars are in that photo, particularly the bicepsing Discher and thumbs-upping Petrella of The Production Line.
A week ago Saturday lastly
My ears were assaulted quite ghastly
When I clicked on a link
Before stopping to think
I wound up at a song by Rick Astley
New York and Detroit
I’m a blogger for teams in both New York and Detroit (and Ann Arbor).
New York is in another world as far as sports fandom. There’s so many people there that they can pull a larger fanbase from the edge of the bell curve than any other city in North America probably can from their entire populations.
Detroit probably has 2.5 million people in the metro area, and another 3.5 million fans around the country who grew up or whose parents grew up Detroiters. New York has about 25 million in its metro area, and another 3.5 million in Floridian coastal cities, to say nothing of the rest of the world (where wearing a Yankees hat gives you as much “I’ve been to America” fan cred as a Manchester United jersey gives you here).
Detroit has New York far and away in general fan support, where you can make a lucid sports comment to anyone on the street and they’ll know what you’re talking about. Try going up to a hipster in Flatbush and strike up a conversation about about the optimal place in the batting order for Jose Reyes.
There’s just so much to do in New York, you can find whatever interests you and thousands of others to share the same interests. In Detroit, we’re not a small town, but we’re not a particularly exciting one either. The regular news is usually all bad. So we talk sports. All of us do.
There was a time when New York was like this. Post-War, New York was the Capital of Baseball, the game’s three best teams all within its bureaus: Willy Mays, Jackie Robinson and Mickey Mantle all in the same town.
But today, New York is far too interesting to have everyone interested in the same things. Detroit’s the opposite: we seek reasons to hold together, to find something about our place that gives us pride. We’re a people who’ve been together, with very little in the way of immigration (and much emigration), since our folks’ folks’ folks showed up in the beginning of the 20th century to escape persecution, inequality and poverty for the promise of $5.00 for a hard day’s work. We’re the descendants of painful divisions, and even more painful betrayals. So: Sports.
This was always going to come down to Boston and Detroit. One is the bandwagon where the music never stops, the other an old tractor that doesn’t handle ruts like it used to, but you can’t get off because all else around you is brownfields. Which is the best sports town? I couldn’t tell you: it’s all about whether you think life should always be good to you, or whether you think you can make life be good to you.
I just know it’s not New York. New York isn’t a Sports “Town,” or even a “City;” it’s a Megalopolis of humanity and entertainment where sports is just one more part of the show.
A week ago Saturday lastly
My ears were assaulted quite ghastly
When I clicked on a link
Before stopping to think
I wound up at a song by Rick Astley
Congratualtions, but
as well written and compelling as your response is the underlying argument seems to be that New York is superior in every way to Detroit and therefore they do not deserve to be called a sports town. I understand what you are saying but it reminds me of that old saw about a restaurant in New York. The first guy asks, “Have you ever been to Mulligan’s Bistro?” The second guy responds, “I used to go there but nobody goes there anymore because it is too crowded.”
by Atlanta's original team on Jul 1, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
New York's not a sports town because the average New Yorker doesn't give a shit.
Cool Yogi quote (one of my favs) there. But I think you missed the point entirely.
One of the most important ways I define sports town is the percentage of the populace who are into the local team’s sports. Would you say simply going by population (i.e. market size) is the best way to determine the best sports cities? I would argue that any “Best Sports Town” debate should begin with every city on a level playing field, separating each by the loyalty of its populace, and the magic that those teams have provided.
New York is thus the classic example of a city with a huge population that is NOT a great sports town.
I’m making these following numbers up, not saying they are representative of the specific cities above, but if you take a city where 80 percent of the locals and 95 percent of men are big fans of multiple local teams, and then another city where 30 percent of the locals and 50 percent of males are big fans of multiple local teams, which is the better sports town? Now imagine the first city has 1 million in its metro area, and the second has 10 million. Does that change anything? If you’re a TV exec, yes. If you’re judging “how well received is sport in place X?” then no.
The point about New York having everything was also meant to demonstrate exactly why New York is not a “Sports Town,” while Detroit and a few others like it around the country are very much so. Let’s analogize this as two small towns: Town A, which is a bit larger, has a movie theater, a roller rink, a bowling alley, a hockey rink, a skateboard park, a live music club, a hockey-themed restaurant, a minor league baseball team, and a minor league hockey team (each filled to capacity). Town B has a minor league hockey team, a hockey rink, and a bar filled with hockey paraphernalia (each filled to capacity). Both have the same amenities. Both have the same amount of people enjoying hockey. But which is the greater “Hockey Town?”
Town B, right? Devoid of any other amenities, Town B’s population overwhelmingly supports hockey. They might have built a hockey rink and a bowling alley and a baseball bar, and that would have made them probably more entertaining to a general populace and a “better” town, but judged solely on “How Much Do Those People Love Hockey?” Town B obviously takes the puck. The larger Town A may have the same number of hockey fans, but it’s just another attraction.
A week ago Saturday lastly
My ears were assaulted quite ghastly
When I clicked on a link
Before stopping to think
I wound up at a song by Rick Astley
I understand
I understood the first time but thanks for explaining it again.
It is an argument I have heard for years. That doesn’t make it invalid, it just raises interesting philosophical questions for me. Years ago the Atlanta newspapers wrote about how Atlanta was no longer a sports town. The argument was that the low attendance at games, fair-weather fans and other symptoms were attributable to Atlanta having “grown up” as a city. People now had more to do with their entertainment dollars, and besides, the weather was nice which encourages people to get outside and do things other than just being spectators, or so the argument went. By that reasoning, of course, Green Bay Wisconsin has the best fans of any sport in the world. Knowing people up there makes it hard for me to argue with that logic. And that may be the end of the argument.
But what does that say? Are sports mainly for people who have such meager existences and limited opportunities that single-hearted devotion to sports is the inevitable result? Is there an inverse relationship between bad weather and good fans? Is love of theater or ballet a death knell for a city’s sports scene?
I would argue that surely there is some middle ground here or at least an intersection of various criteria beyond what percentage of people want to commit suicide when the home team loses because that is all they have to live for. I know, I know, I am engaging in hyperbole but you are reasonable enough to understand my point. The original point of this poll as I understood it was to measure several intangibles in trying to gauge what constitutes a great sports town. If we define it as narrowly as you seem to then you are absolutely correct.
But what if the other criteria have to do with a city’s willingness to support a tax base which not only provides a safety net for the down and out but which also provides parks, recreation, free cultural events and keeps several large sporting venues operating? What about the quality of the product put on the court or on the field? What if it is not just the percentage of the general population that are hard core fans but the number of people in the city who may never see a game but still feel some pride because they are in a “big league” town that can host multiple events simultaneously and still pack them all? What if the city boasts solid fan support for sports beyond the usual baseball, football, basketball?
So a guy on a subway coming back from the MET encounters a fan coming back from watching the Mets.
“How’d they do he asks?”
“We lost,” says the Mets fan who then quickly adds, “How was the show?”
“Great,” says the arts buff as he adds, “That’s too bad they lost.”
Since I have a daughter in Brooklyn and a brother in Manhattan, I can say from my many visits that New York represents the pinnacle of achievement in almost any endeavor. Playing almost any sport in New York is an intense experience because fans are exacting, knowledgeable and demanding of excellence. But if you can make there you can make it anywhere.
by Atlanta's original team on Jul 1, 2010 4:12 PM EDT reply actions
I think we agree more than you know.
I think the key here is I’m not saying places like Atlanta or New York are “bad” sports towns. Not really. It’s all relative.
You make an excellent point about Green Bay: if they’re living and dying with one sport, does that a sports town make? But we’re getting into semantics.
Let’s go back to a definition of a “Great” sports town. It’s one where the locals care about as many sports as possible, and where the locals overwhelmingly support their home teams. There are probably very very few “Bad” sports towns out there as I define it. Among large cities, it’s probably Seattle and that’s it. My point about New York is that they’re not a whole lot better than Seattle when it comes to percent of population who cares.
But you are correct in that I overplayed how important that is. Because I too have been to New York, I mean like a lot a lot a lot (3 to 7 times per year since ‘05). I’ve ridden the 7 Train to Mets games, when The Matts are on board with their blue and orange suits and the whole train is singing “Meet the Mets, Meet the Mets.” It is awesome. There’s nothing like that in Detroit. It may be 0.0004 percent of the city’s population, but it’s there and it’s real and it’s tangible and that makes New York a great sports city, in its way.
So I went overboard in my reply. I do think a town that has “grown up” can be a good town for sports. Absolutely do. I also don’t think it’s necessary for four sports franchises to be the only businesses left in town before you declare a city “great.” What I really mean, going not so far as I did before, was that Detroit showed how singularly great of a sports town it is by sticking to its sports teams even as the city has crumbled around us. It’s a particular of Detroit, an effect, a crucible, that doesn’t really say anything about the sports greatness of any other town than Detroit.
As for Atlanta, though: take it for what it’s worth, but I think there’s way too many transplants for Atlanta to be more than a “good” sports town in the foreseeable future. The Braves (no offense Jackets) are the best thing going, but I’ve been to Turner and its predecessor, and 100 degrees and balmy is not exactly the “best” way to see a ballgame (in fairness to our next opponent, that honor goes to Fenway). Hawks, Falcons: these things usually do not move one’s soul outside of born-Atlanteans.
In summation, we’re not arguing at all whether or not any of these cities are “great” sports towns, but among the great sports towns, which one is truly transcendent? You need not dis the Beatles to say Radiohead or Led Zepplin is the best ever; it is no knock against Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb or Ted Williams to call Hank Aaron the greatest hitter who every lived — that they’re in the same conversation is proof that there is something moving there. We’re only talking “Greatest.” And if the conversation sticks to that, I think it’s between Detroit and Boston, and I honestly couldn’t tell you which is better.
L'Équipe! L'Équipe! L'Équipe!
It's all relative to each person's perspective
I understand everyones values and how those affect their vote and I think that is the key to these things. No one is absolutely wrong or right. I disagreed with Detroit over LA and I disagree here, but it’s all based on what I am using to determine each city’s worth as a “great” sports city.
To me, it has nothing to do with the past because I’m not a part of that past, so there’s no real connection for me there. Instead, it’s all about if I could move to that city, immerse myself into the sports community, latch onto more than one of the sports teams in the area, and fully enjoy it to the core of my sporting soul. Could I move to that city and within a year or two be able to change my allegiences from the A? Could I wake up, put on one of that city’s sports colors and feel like I’m a part of it? If that answer is yes, then that makes it a great sports city to me.
Currently, there is nothing about what Detroit has to offer that makes me feel that way. Sure, I could follow some players (CJ obviously), but I couldn’t imagine myself as a Lions fan, or Pistons fan, or a Tigers fan (even if my nickname is BigCecil – it has more to do with Prince). Hockey does nothing for me period, so the Wings are out as well. LA and New York offer so much more to me than Detroit does.
Again, that’s just how I weigh it. YMMV
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Oh, you'd get into the Tigers
If that’s how you weight things, okay, but I think we concur that it doesn’t really apply beyond how you personally voted. This isn’t a poll of “What’s the Best Sports City for Jesse28?” but the Ultimate Sports City. I think if we’re arguing about how to measure that, then, it’s best to stick to universal factors.
Mostly, though, I disagree as to how quickly you could pick up the Tigers.
With just one Tigers home game (each) I have been able to convert the proprietor of Metalsucks.net, two French nerds, two Texas, a Seattle hipster couple, and four Vietnamese businessmen (who came to the Ernie Harwell farewell) into lifelong Tigers fans. There are ballparks around the country where just seeing a game there makes you want to like the team, even if you have always hated the team (St. Louis, Chicago’s NL park, Boston, New York’s old AL park). Detroit is one of them, with the added bonus that unlike the aforementioned, there’s really nothing to hate about it.
Consider this a standing invitation: next you’re in Detroit, I’ll take you to Slow’s (best bbq in a Union state) right beside the field where Cobb and Greenberg and Trammell played, then a ballgame at Comerica, perhaps with a few baseballs murdered by Cabrera and Boesch, and perhaps a round at the Pump after, which inevitably becomes a late-night run to the Lafayette Coney Island.
By the end, I guarantee you’ll be just as “omigod guys Inge is totally a rad dude just like the rest of us who just gets hits when they’re needed” and “I just bummed Jim Leyland a cigarette and he said ‘horseshit’ to me!” and “wow, Tom Brookens’ mustache has magical powers” as the rest of us.
L'Équipe! L'Équipe! L'Équipe!
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