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An Alabama Fan and Bobby Dodd

The Dodd

At From the Rumble Seat, we deal with rival fans on a daily basis. I recently received an e-mail from a Bama fan. This Bama fan was upset with the bias we showed when I wrote this piece about the GT-Bama series after we postponed the GT-Bama series in 2014. To spare the drama, here's the e-mail I received a couple days ago:
In your article about GT and Alabama and the after whistle hitting of the GT player. I noticed you didn't mention the GT player who kicked the Auburn player in the head after the Whistle blew. This happened the same year after GT played Alabama. Also If I recall correctly, Bobby Dodd pulled out of the SEC saying GT would be an Independent like Notre Dame and did not need the SEC, but he sure was not winning many games while in the SEC playing the SEC schedule. Thanks for remembering these not so old times.
[CLASSIFIED], RPh
U of Alabama 1962-1966
Roll Tide
I hadn't ever heard of the GT-Auburn incident but I knew that Tech competed and was very successful in the SEC from 1945-1963. This is a very common misconception amongst SEC fans. The idea that Tech withdrew from the SEC because we couldn't compete is flat out wrong. So I wrote this response:
Dear Sir:

I respect your opinions but you are gravely mistaken concerning Georgia Tech's departure from the SEC. Bobby Dodd coached against 28 different SEC coaches. He only had a losing record against 4 of them (Bear Bryant, Shug Jordan, Red Drew, and Charles McClendon).

Dodd had an 83-43 record against SEC opponents while Georgia Tech was in the SEC and he captured two SEC titles during that run, which were more than Auburn, Kentucky, Tulane, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, and Florida. In fact, the only squad with a winning record against Tech during Dodd's SEC run was Alabama. Competing with SEC squads was not the issue that drove Tech from the SEC.

Bobby Dodd did not agree with the practices of the SEC schools. It is a well documented fact that Bobby Dodd pulled Tech from the SEC because its member schools treated their players like cattle not humans. Football was not worth torturing, humiliating, and ruining college-aged kids to Dodd. All Georgia Tech men have the utmost respect for Robert Lee Dodd because creating a better team on the field was second to creating better men off the field.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
It was a quick response that I whipped up with some excel magic. I decided to research the Auburn-face-kicking incident as well and a scanned article from Hendersonville, North Carolina's Times-News popped up on Google. The article was dated October 22, 1963 (three days after Tech played Auburn). Here's an excerpt:
Georgia Tech's Ted Davis, a standout end, yesterday resigned from the school's football team after publicly [apologizing] for kicking Auburn halfback David Rawson in the face during Tech's 29-21 loss to Auburn last Saturday...Davis said he was quitting the team to save Tech the "embarassment of kicking me off the football squad."... Davis said his actions, "violated every standard Coach Dodd sets for his football players."
Later on in the article, it reads:
The incident recalled the Chick Granning-Darwin Holt elbow altercation in 1961...Granning was hospitalized and lost for the rest of the year. Holt apologized for the incident but remained on the team and no disciplinary action was taken.
Clearly, there were two different sets of standards at play during this Era: Dodd's standards and everyone elses. Dodd lost an All-American and future NFL Draft Pick in Ted Davis. Darwin Holt was a scrub that played special teams for the Bear. Hopefully, fans of opposing teams who read our blog understand why we have so much respect for Bobby Dodd. The man was a great coach but was an even greater man. Many of his coaching peers were merely great coaches.

Here's the breakdown of information concerning Dodd vs. SEC teams while Tech was in the SEC (1945-1963):

19451963_medium
194519632_medium

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Great stuff... 15 SEC coaches never beat Bobby Dodd; 9 of them had multiple tries.

Both the Ted Davis and Darwin Holt incidents are given quite a bit of detail in Dodd’s Luck, in case anybody wants to know more.

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by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Excellent article

I was unaware of most of this information (other than the reason for Tech’s withdrawal from the SEC). There clearly were two different standards back then.

by acedarney on May 6, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Man,

still waiting on the folks from RollBamaRoll to come over and start the discussion….
or maybe they just know the truth and can’t handle it?

by Winfield Featherston on May 6, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

that's because we didn't know about it...

i’ve made a fanshot and bumped it to the front page. feel free to do this in the future or drop me or any of the other RBR panjandrums and email.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on May 6, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Will do...

I guess it’s just our topic of conversation because there’s not much else going on post-Spring Game. Our old SEC rivalries had some good story lines, in my opinion.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Noted

I didn’t want to come over and be on of those guys looking just to start a fight

by Winfield Featherston on May 6, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

well you sound like one...

You sound like a GT turd.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

a fourth generation turd

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

well that depends on how you write it...

we invite input on this kind of stuff and most of our readers seem to be interested in it as well. i’ve taken it upon myself over at RBR to put a spotlight on more of the historical aspects of the alabama football and that includes looking at many of the controversial issues that have occurred as well.

you also need to keep in mind, alabama fans feelings concerning this whole affair is warped a bit by furman bisher’s hatchet job in the saturday evening post. the AJC’s longtime hack-in-residence hatred of coach bryant as well as his ongoing and embarrassing man crush on dodd has muddied the perceptions of all these incidents.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on May 6, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with Kleph that perspective matters here..

Dodd had a winning record from 1945-56 and was arguably one of the most dominant coaches in the SEC during that period. However, before all the Tech fans trip over the moral high ground, it’s pretty obvious that Dodd’s teams were bad to mediocre with regard to SEC competition from 1956 until 1963, after which Tech left the conference. I’m not going to argue that Dodd’s disagreements over recruitment and the previously-discussed plays weren’t part of the reasons Tech left the SEC, but it’s obvious Tech was having a hard time beating SEC teams for several years before leaving.

Dodd’s records during those periods:

1945-1956
101-28-4 (.759)
60-18-2 v. SEC (.750)
8 bowls in 12 seasons

1957-1963
41-28-4 (.561)
25-23-2 v. SEC (.500)
3 bowls in 7 seasons

by CrimsonLawDog on May 6, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arbitrary subdivisions

You pulled some rather arbitrary eras. For Dodd’s teams, it was all about the maestro leading the offense. Dodd’s last three SEC seasons were Billy Lothridge’s three years at the helm and Tech performed much better than when Vann, Braselton, and Gann were QB’s from 1957-1960. Those four years really hurt the second grouping of years you listed.

And saying Tech was bad to mediocre in the SEC under Dodd is pretty bold. Comparing anyone to Bama during Bryant’s heydey will make any team look bad. Tech was a good SEC team from the birth of the SEC through Tech’s departure.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You misread me a little there...

The divisions I made accurately indicate the beginning of Tech’s problems winning in the SEC, which eventually played a part in their leaving the conference.

Note that I never argued that Tech was mediocre vs. the SEC during Dodd’s entire tenure; in fact I said just the opposite. However, the numbers show that from 1957 until Tech ultimately chose to leave the SEC, they had very limited success aginst SEC teams. Even in the ‘good’ years you indicated from 1961-63, Tech was only 13-8 (.619) vs. the SEC. The four years prior to that, Tech was 12-15-2 (.413). No matter how you slice it, 25-23-2 against the SEC in Tech’s last 7 years in the conference can only be qualified as mediocre for that specific period.

Clearly, Tech fans will tend to believe that recruiting, Bryant’s disciplinary decisions and other issues were the main reason for their departure from the conference. As a ‘Bama fan, I’m obviously going to disagree with that, and I am providing the stats above to show that seven years with a 25-23-2 in-conference record also played a role.

by CrimsonLawDog on May 6, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leaving due to competition would be considered a factor if it were true.

It’s not true, however. We constantly scheduled good teams (e.g. SMU, Notre Dame, Duke, Clemson, etc.) during this era. Why would competition drive us from the SEC if we were constantly seeking a challenging schedule?

The issue with scheduling was more so Dodd pursuing an independent-national-type schedule like ND, which would take us out of the SEC. Factor in bad blood with the Mississippi schools and you’ve got some good ol’ Southern politics involved.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Playing both sides of the ball

What year did the Bear and the Miss. State coach get the rules to change back to players had to play both offense and defense? I remember Bobby Dodd took a lot of pride in getting what he called “specialists”. This especially helped b/c Tech could compete much better this away against the school who had just dominant athletes. He then said that when the rule change when back to both O and D, he lost his touch.

I’ll have to look it up if someone can’t beat me to it.

by Winfield Featherston on May 6, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

1953

After we won the national championship. So that didn’t necessarily play a factor into any “downhill slide”

by Winfield Featherston on May 6, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

For several years before leaving, Dodd had been lobbying against the over-recruiting advantage enjoyed by other SEC teams.

They put it to a vote a few times, but it never went Dodd’s way. That combined with academic challenges (and his, shall we say, discomfort with Bryant’s disciplinary methods) was what did it.

He also only won 7 games during each of his first two years out of the SEC (same as each of his last 3 years in the SEC — 7 wins each) and had only one bowl win after leaving the SEC, so the argument could be made that he was just plain winding down and would’ve had less success than earlier no matter the conference. He’d been thinking about quitting for about a decade by the time he actually did, but felt obligated to stick around.

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
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by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a hard time..

with the argument with Dodd “winding down” over ten seasons from 1957-1966 when he ultimately retired. The man was a head coach from 1945-1966; are you suggesting that he was winding down for nearly half his career?

Another point of comparison: After Tech left the SEC, they went 23-8-1 (.718) under Dodd against all comers. During that same period against SEC schools, Tech’s record was 9-7-1 (.529). In other words, Tech beat almost everyone they played from 1964-66…except SEC schools.

by CrimsonLawDog on May 6, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was unaware that he was seriously considering

retirement for that whole period. If so, I agree that could have had an effect. Regardless, I maintain Tech’s inability to consistently beat SEC teams during their last seven years in the conference (whether you argue that was due to over-recruiting, retirement plans, or other issues) had an effect, too.

by CrimsonLawDog on May 6, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...

are Mississippi State, Kentucky, South Carolina, and Vanderbilt considering departing the SEC?

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course not.

They’re making boatloads of cash, remember? If any of those schools attempted to leave, you and I both know a significant factor in that decision would be competition.

by CrimsonLawDog on May 6, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also as I recall

at the time Tech quit the SEC no other school has won more Conference Championships. That was a long time ago and my childhood memory could be fuzzy but I recall that Alabama and Tech has won the same number of championships.

Years ago I had a dear childhood friend who was a dyed in the wool UGA fan. I once asked him in an unguarded moment why there was so much hatred against Tech in the SEC. Whether he regretted his answer later or not here is what he said. “I think the other schools are a little jealous of Tech, therefore their biggest fear is to lose a game to Tech. This deeper fear is different from the fear of losing to any other SEC team.”

I know this is just one UGA fan’s opinion but it had a slight ring of truth to to. The vitriol directed toward Tech always seems out of proportion to the facts at hand.

by Atlanta's original team on May 6, 2010 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

SEC titles during Dodd's SEC run

Ole Miss – 6
Tennessee, uga, Bama – 3
LSU – 2

So everyone else had one or less. Ole Miss had a good run there.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you count the SEC's SIAC/SC roots (which can be argued for, as we count the NFL's pre-merger days as part of the same continuity, same for the NBA),

we have as many as LSU and more than Florida, Auburn, Ole Miss, and all the crappy teams. Meaning we’re in fourth place in a conference we haven’t been a part of for almost half a century.

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
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by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually in 1964...

When Tech pulled out of the SEC, Georgia Tech had 5 SEC Championships, equal with Alabama’s five NATIONAL championships. Close though

This is not the end. This is the beginning.
-- Coach Nick Saban, January 16, 2009

by houndstoothbear on May 6, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tech had 3 NC's at the same point

So we’re not comparing a Cadillac with a Fiat here. Tech is a historically good program that totally collapsed post-SEC and I’ll admit to that.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for confirming that five is "close" to three, houndstoothbear.

Can you also verify that the sun came up today as it did yesterday?

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
The Falcoholic · Blog · Twitter

by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it came up a minute sooner and will retreat a minute later today.

It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.

And the roses in this grand ol' stadium are once again Crimson. - Eli Gold, CTSN Broadcast of the BCS Championship Game at the Rose Bowl, 1-7-2010

by AlabamaJammer on May 6, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

So let me get this straight..

“the SEC was bunch of hillbilly’s that treated our players like cattle” Good excuse.

“Football was not worth torturing, humiliating, and ruining college-aged kids to Dodd.”
you are right and that’s why Gtech canceled this series. Smart move.

by Toby Morris on May 6, 2010 2:35 PM EDT reply actions  

So your coach kicked players off his team

well my coach smoked chesterfield cigarettes, drank bourbon like a fish, and wrestled a bear

what’s your point?

My body is a temple

by Wallacewade04 on May 6, 2010 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Hall of Famer as a coach and a player. Favorite pre-game practice regimen: hours of volleyball.

My favorite thing Dodd and Bryant had in common: way ahead of the game when it came to issues of race.

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
The Falcoholic · Blog · Twitter

by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

people try to give southern coaches hell on the issue of race

I remember reading in college football books how coaches like Bryant would send tapes of southern black athletes they weren’t allowed to recruit up north to their fellow coaches

can’t cite it but I remember a story of Bryant producing a list of all the recruits he wanted but couldn’t get to a reporter questioning him on segregation

My body is a temple

by Wallacewade04 on May 6, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to legend, Bryant scheduled a home game against a stacked and integrated USC team just so the locals could see the all-white Tide get crushed by black athletes.

Dodd agreed to play a bowl game against Notre Dame, I believe, despite local outrage about them having a black player. Tech students marched on the state capitol when the govt threatened to prevent the game.

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
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by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may be wrong, but

That story sounds like Tech versus Pitt (I think) in a mid-1950s Sugar Bowl. There’s an account of it in Dress Her in White and Gold. (I’m from a mixed family, and I love Southern college football history.)

by NCT on May 6, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

more...

It was state policy that neither UGA nor the Trade School could play games against “integrated” teams. In order to let Tech go to New Orleans, an exception was made to permit such games only if they occurred outside Georgia.

The game you described may have happened, too. It would have to have been toward the end of Dodd’s tenure.

by NCT on May 6, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clarification

By “mixed”, I meant GST/GIT and UGA. I can’t speak from any other perspective that might shed light on this part of our history.

by NCT on May 6, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

1954 Pitt Game.

…well documented story.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Pitt. That's right.

Thank you.

Longest Atlanta Falcons winning-seasons streak: 2008 - current
The Falcoholic · Blog · Twitter

by Jason Kirk on May 6, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

and almost killed a player

during practice at Texas A&M because he thought dehydration was a sign of weakness.

by Atlanta's original team on May 6, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think later in his life the Bear

came to understand that the physical limitations of the body were not a character flaw. He did become a kinder, gentler bear.

by Atlanta's original team on May 7, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

an aside on this debate penned especially for the tech grads

01100110 01110101 01110010 01101101 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01101001 01110011 01101000 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01101011 01101001 01110011 01110011 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01100001 01110011 01110011 00101110

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on May 6, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Added more information for anyone interested.

In a fanpost.

Features of the Perfect Car: 201 cubic inch displacement, 40 horsepower, 3.77:1 drive ratio, single barrel carburetor, top speed of 65 mph

by BirdGT on May 6, 2010 10:04 PM EDT reply actions  

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