Demaryius Thomas vs. Amari Spievey
by BirdGT on Dec 17, 2009 11:06 AM EST
35 comments
Note: This was supposed to publish at 8AM but it seems there has been some issues with the scheduling of posts. Either way, here you go.
Two guys. One catches all of our passes. One hits guys that catch passes. I'm not familiar with the Hawkeyes' defensive backfield philosophy (boundary/strong side/man-man) but based on talent alone I'm assuming Amari Spievey will be assigned to defend Demaryius Thomas a majority of the time. Black Heart Gold Pants said this of Spievey:
We haven't seen Spievey get "beaten" very much; usually, if someone completes a throw on him, it's a pass to the flat, and it ends with Amari putting his helmet through the player's femur and ending the play.
The match up is not the first this season for Thomas against talented players in the secondary. Thomas' statistically worst game was against the Tarheels. Two All-ACC performers in Deunta Williams and Kendric Burney were assigned to Bay Bay but in limiting Thomas, the Tarheels couldn't slow down the rushing attack. They sacrificed run support for stopping Thomas and his big plays. UNC didn't win but they limited our deep passing game.
Wake Forest limited Thomas, as well. Wake defended the edge and the pass with great discipline but sacrificed the dive. Jonathan Dwyer racked up 200 yards because of it. Wake limited the QB and A-Backs to 5.4 yards per carry but gave up a whopping 8.7 yards per carry to Dwyer and Preston Lyons. (averaged between the two)
The problem presented to defensive coordinators is that wide receivers in Paul Johnson's offense are expected to block. Thomas is a big dude and he enjoys leveling unsuspecting defensive backs - particularly safeties on the triple option. Because of his excellent blocking ability, we typically run to Demaryius' side of the field. Corners have to keep their eyes in the backfield in case it's play action or an option-pass. The worst place to be on defense when playing against a Paul Johnson offense is at the point of attack. For the most part, we'll be lead blocking all of our edge plays with Demaryius Thomas and the corner matched up with him will be catching Hell all night. If Thomas isn't picking up the corner, then a tackle or slot back will. The corner's gotta be able to take a beating and just be prepared to force the slot backs back inside or beat the block and make a tackle. If Spievey can't make 5-6 solo tackles in this game, I don't see Iowa's defense having much success at all
Outside the realm of blocking, Bay Bay has become a pretty refined wide receiver in Johnson's offense. He has an excellent ability to fake corners. He beats guys on jump balls with regularity and is fast enough to beat safeties in single coverage. Norm Parker's guys have got their hands full.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Demaryius in one on one at first just so Norm can see how the talent lines up. It would take a nasty turnover for Paul Johnson to stop going to Demaryius Thomas deep. Even then, if it were a poorly thrown ball, I wouldn't be surprised if we kept going his way. Seeing as Iowa's defense relies on the front seven, we should probably expect an unusual mix of passing to start the game. Like BHGP said, this battle could be an important part in determining the winner of the looming Iowa-GT War.
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This should be
one of the best matchups during the game. Spievey is one of the best corners to have ever played for the Hawks. He is very physical and will not shy away from big hits. He is exceptional in run support. That being said, this will definately be a big challenge for him. Demaryius Thomas is a big, physical receiver and will test Amari’s athletisism and physicality. All in all, it should be a great contest between the two.
"The possibility of physical and mental collapse is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." HST
I know both sets of fans are in an echo chamber
But I think this is shaping up to be a very exciting matchup, and I dismiss those out there in the media saying that no one should care about this game outside of our fan bases.
Very intriguing matches shaping up on both sides.
Keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city - that aint legal either, Dude.
by AcrimoniousAngerererer on Dec 17, 2009 4:59 PM EST reply actions
He's an imposing and impressive receiver
but when you analyze the guy he is kind of a one trick poney…he goes deep down field and tries to win the ball, and he only catches three or four balls a game against most teams. Vertical receivers are not our problem, the underneath technicians are our weakness.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Disagree, Stoops.
I think they’re going to put Thomas on the right side and try to take Prater and Greenwood to school. The writer here thinks, for some reason, that we’ll move Spievey around and shadow Thomas with him, but that’s Deion Sanders shit and we don’t do that, like, ever. GT has no short and medium passing game, and unless I’m overconfident, Angerer has the dive, Binns and Clayborn have option 2 and Edds, Hunter et al wide contain; Sash at the second-level, inside-out. They have four weeks to learn how to do that, leaving … Thomas beating Greenwood to the ball.
It will be holy hell ugly for us if we’re confused or a step slow to the ball in the rungame, but I just don’t think a team can outthink or out-gamplan Iowa’s D, and I don’t think the linebackers are slow.
IOW, if they can’t run the ball on us they may still win. Brett and Joe have to be on.
This assumes the evil genius doesn’t throw some new stuff out onto the field. But I don’t see that either: he wins with what he knows, and he knows exactly what he knows. It’s admirable to see another team with such a clear and focused identity.
Mr. Boh Knows ...
Just as a footnote,
and as an ex-corner from the pleistocene era when option football was still common, I am curious what Prater and Spievey’s run-pass key is, if indeed they are supposed to support run. Given the one-dimensional passing game at GT, maybe we take them completely out of run-support, and tell them, “Thomas will not catch more than one 20-yard pass today.”
Oddly, this GT offense may be discomfitted by Iowa’s ability to play positional defense with 6 in the box. I don’t know if GT’s played anyone all year so dedicated to positional, assignment team defense, nor anyone who says “We can outpunch you — with six in the box.” It’s not like their line is big enough to shove our front four around; they’ll be cutting and diving at our knees all day. What I’ve read is that one of the keys to understanding the evil genius is not who he blocks, but who he doesn’t bother to block, because they’ve deked some linebacker or end a half-step out of position, then … poof, 9 yard run. I’m not sure that’s going to work against Norm, not with a month to prepare. You beat the option, conversely, by realizing that if Johnson gives you something, it’s because he thinks you’re stupid enough to take it (and poof, 9 yard run).
Mr. Boh Knows ...
The two times the Tech option has been nullified this season (Miami & Clemson)
was by DTs getting penetration at the line and disrupting the option. Do you have the DTs for that? If not then you’ll be trying to stop a lot of 3rd and 1s or 3rd and 2s against a 4 down coach.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Interesting
So you are willing to let your least experienced DB try to cover our best WR? Somehow that doesn’t sound very smart to me. But, if you insist, I’m sure Bey Bey will help you learn the error of your ways.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
I believe your best DE will be going against our best OL
by your logic, you’re not too smart either.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Wrong
Morgan plays on either side depending on the situation. If it is deemed that he isn’t getting through against your best OL, we’ll simply move him to create a mismatch.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Similar to VT's scheme
where they play boundary/field corners. It’s the thought that the playside is typically the wide side of the field so the best guy is on the wide side of the field (field corner). The lesser corner is the boundary corner playing the short side. I’m assuming that’s what Bellanca was inferring. It’s typical in college defenses not pros.
This philosophy is good except against freaks like CJ but no one really has CJ’s so it’s pretty effective in college.
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.
No, we don't flipflop the corners. And this is today's martial metaphor.
You guys aren’t paying attention. We don’t blitz. We don’t play man. We don’t Deion Sanders the best receiver. We don’t care if you complete 5 yard passes. We don’t care if you complete 7 yard passes. We don’t miss tackles. The most physical football game every year in the NCAA is Iowa – Michigan State. Mike Stoops says Iowa was the best defense they played all year, owing to speed and physicality. We don’t do hardly anything that Tech does, because Tech is a gambling, attacking, roving band of barbarians, usually with 8, and sometimes 9, in the box (while Iowa plays with 6). Iowa is like a Roman phalanx: disciplined, no man shirking his position, wading into the barbarian hordes, in step, and wiping them out.
I don’t know if it will work against Tech, but please stop comparing Iowa to these southern school blitz-happy, man-under coverage defenses.
Mr. Boh Knows ...
No shit...
They see yards per game allowed and then they’re off to the races. It’s rediculous.
Norm was on video on the Gazette site and was asked if he would do any 3-4 or any tricks and he was half offended. He replied something like, Which lineman you gonna take way? Cause they’re all fucking (my word) good. He also said, and I loved this, there is nothing he can invent that Johnson hasn’t seen, so why waste time trying to outscheme. They run it both ways and they don’t always go to the side that they motion to…so you gotta play balanced and get off blocks and tackle. Pretty simple. All these other ACC teams are out trying to point-counterpoint apparently, and they forgot to just play football. I can’t think of any other explanation for the basketball scores. (iowa basketball scores that is…)
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
I meant Virginia Tech in the first reference, Georgia Tech in the last paragraph. Apologies.
Mr. Boh Knows ...
If you're gonna bust his chops
About the Virginia Tech comparison, at least make sure you’re not talking about the Hokies from 5 years ago. Yes, Bud Foster still blitzes plenty, and against Georgia Tech they were almost always playing a single deep safety, but they played a bunch of zone against us, and they throttled Miami playing almost exclusively Cover-2 and Cover-4.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
There is no way you play six in the box against GT...no way
You’ll get killed with the inside run. We’ll 5-yard run you to death…You will open with 7 or 8 in the box and dare GT to throw it.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Iowa doesn't play man-to-man, so you can drop that entire idea.
Iowa does not scramble schemes for anybody, either, we just play the same thing day in day out.
For teams that spread we may roll into some 3-4. What I expect to see is that GT will have to beat Edds, Tarp, Hunter, Johnson on the edge. Iowa is unique, perhaps in major D-I programs, in playing a 240 lb human on opposing slots (Edds); Edds will play on Sunday, and his predecessor (Greenway) starts for the Vikings. When we successfully defeat a spread, you usually see Edds spying the QB, so I predict a variation on that theme against the evil genius’ triple option. DB’s do not go man, nor force contain, typically; their job is to keep the receivers in front of them, then rotate their hips and run up the sideline with them on demand. Successful offenses against Iowa typically are extremely patient and precise in the short and medium passing game, but GT doesn’t have either. Sash was all american and all Big Ten this year, and he is a lot stronger than you might think. He also has a remarkable, critical, intangible: he’s one of those guys who senses where the ball is going to be, and he’s always a step closer to the action than a B+ strong safety. I would expect to see a lot of inside-out pursuit from him.
Iowa’s got a deeper linebacker crew than Linebacker U, and our third string guy, Johnson, got to play one week this year and was Big Ten defensive player of the week.
Thomas frightens me deep, because he is probably faster than our walk-on FS, Greenwood. He’s going to tower over Prater. Spievey is strangely underrated by the college football world; he’s one of the best tacklers we’ve seen in the backfield, probably since Bob Sanders, and he’s better than Bradley Fletcher and Charles Godfrey, our most recent DB graduates to the NFL. The whole crackback blocking thing is troubling too, because you are right: no one else chooses to be this nasty (other than, of course, Navy). I’m not saying cheap, I’m not saying illegal, I’m saying downright evil and nasty, so that could make some little guy’s brain explode with worry and apprehension.
Because I don’t think GT will find it as easy to run this offense as you do, I think Thomas and the vertical game are a fundamental key to GT’s success. I think Greenwood needs to have one of his best games ever and be popping Thomas hard every time they try to sneak a long one. If there’s a single player starting for Iowa with a speed deficit, it may be Greenwood. (Iowa is a lot faster, man-for-man, than anyone ever credits.)
Mr. Boh Knows ...
interesting debate
The whole crackback blocking thing is troubling too, because you are right: no one else chooses to be this nasty (other than, of course, Navy). I’m not saying cheap, I’m not saying illegal, I’m saying downright evil and nasty, so that could make some little guy’s brain explode with worry and apprehension.
You know, the cut blocking is an interesting debate but it’s just like tackling at the knees. I teach my JV kids to get low and hit the ankles or legs against guys that are bigger/stronger. It’s just leverage. But when it’s used by an offensive line, it’s considered dangerous/illegal/etc.. You see a heckuva lot more offensive guys carted off the field from low tackles resulting in knee injuries than defensive guys getting hurt by cut blocking.
Either way, I don’t like either – tackling knees/ankles or cut blocking. But that’s what we’ve got and opposing defenses play a lot more cautious against us than they normally would.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Well, I think the difference is that open field tackles at the ankles
don’t occur while 270 lb bodies are surrounding/leaning against the running back.
Mr. Boh Knows ...
watch this
Link. There are good close ups of the OL. I don’t really see anything that would be construed as dangerous in our blocking schemes. Most of the bad cuts are from A-backs and wide outs but every team’s wide outs and running backs are taught to cut DL/LB’s.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
This was my point with Thomas
Successful offenses against Iowa typically are extremely patient and precise in the short and medium passing game, but GT doesn’t have either.
I’ve seen enough of him on film to say that he is so big as to not be shifty, nor does we work in space. He is a brute and he is fast and he is vertical. He sprints up the field and then acts like Charles Oakley if Charles Oakley had hops.
If Iowa stays base, then I think he is going to have to just out physical us—and he can do that—but then that means the QB has to be accurate. That is the part I am skeptical about.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Almost all of Bay Bay's TD's
are from bubble screens where he breaks a tackle and takes it to the house. We don’t throw in the red zone, which is why his TD’s have all been from 75, 76, 70, 23, 34, 56, 35, and 73 yards. He has great speed and strength. So he’ll break a tackle or two and take it to the house.
And the run game only helps him because it removes all of the help that would normally be dedicated to the pass.
It is true that we don’t have much of an intermediate passing game but one thing you’ll probably see is the effectiveness of the short passing game because our play action always sells. Defenses have to respect the run because we run 75% of the time. I’m pretty sure the only incompletions we’ve seen all year in routes 5-10 yards deep were ugly drops. It’ll be fun to see what play calling is used against the Hawkeye D.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
the other thing
GT’s offense is incredibly patient. I don’t know where you guys got that we were this big play or bust team. Paul Johnson is patient, collected and great in big games. He’s firey but that doesn’t take away his focus.
The intermediate passing game is irrelevant because our starting B-back averages 6 yards/carry, our A-backs average 7-8 yards per carry, and Nesbitt averages 4 yards per carry. Why pass when you always pick up the necessary yardage in the run game?
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Not saying that GT isn't patient.
I’m just saying I don’t think the run is going to be working like it did against all those teams with 72 hours to change-up and prepare for the triple option … leaving the passing game. Your vertical passing game is a classic constraint play (we do the same thing, and will unless Moeaki is double or triple teamed) once teams believe they can cheat the safety into run-protect and get the numbers advantage by cheating their deep middle coverage. Basically, releasing the tight end after he chips and counts to one one thousand is Iowa’s trick play. Teams like Indiana took that away, and the Manzi hit two long bombs outside in about 27 seconds. (Speaking of which, your pass efficiency defense numbers are particularly ominous.)
Bubble screens are another constraint play, deployed to punish a defense for loading 8 in the box and shooting linebackers. Iowa plays positional, assignment defense with 6 in the box, rarely blitzes, and therefore a bubble screen is an ill-suited call against the Iowa defense. I don’t think that play is going to be working for GT.
The whole game comes down to Norm’s teaching and coaching his option defense. We know that Johnson’s offense will force Iowa to prove that they’ve been schooled. There isn’t a core athletic advantage with GT’s offense, just severe scheme, and identity, excellence. Iowa has many, many more guys playing D who will be playing on Sunday than the popular perception might indicate. This is a great game because it will be a coaches game: preparation and scheme and adjustments (Johnson is perhaps best at his in-game recognitions, no?) will determine outcome. Iowa has to have the discipline to obviate the adjustments, by not overplaying, getting greedy, getting that half-step out of the assigned lane.
Mr. Boh Knows ...
I think this
is where I take issue. This isn’t a Southern-bias thing. I just kinda see Iowa as UNC-like. An incredibly strong defense. I think most of America would see Butch Davis and Norm Parker as on par. Davis has said the following of GT:
…Time of possession was totally lopsided. The most telling thing when you play this type of offense, you can’t turn the ball over more than the other team…Our defense, for an awfully long time, hung in and hung in…When you look at Georgia Tech and watch all the games they play, you know that field position is potentially going to be tough – the time of possession, the number of possessions. We talked to the defense and said we’ve got to get some stops….This offense is extraordinarily difficult to stop. When they’ve got a lead, every phase of that offense is still viable.
The reason GT fans use the UNC game as an example is because they had an incredibly Jekyll-Hyde offense like Iowa and a sick defense, statistically speaking. Davis is known for recruiting D talent and putting in the NFL. I don’t think many people’d be surprised if 5-6 of the Tarheels on this year’s D made it to NFL squads.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Basically, releasing the tight end after he chips and counts to one one thousand is Iowa’s trick play.
Tech does that, too, but with an A back. Most of the game they are blocking or the trailer in the option, but if the middle opens then Johnson will send one down the field.
While Bey Bey has caught most of the passes, the A backs have several, including a very long one against Vandy.
I haven’t seen anyone mention Stephen Hill. He’s the wide out on the other side, and he’s taller than Thomas. He’s a true freshman, so his level of play isn’t as good, but he’s getting there.
Also
The only time he’s been stopped on his WR reverse play is when Bey Bey got called for holding. I honestly think Hill is faster than Bey Bey, but either way both of them are beasts.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Statistically
It’s pretty close. Iowa had a slightly better Defense and a slightly better Offense (which obviously makes them the much better overall team), but they’re built the same way.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Iowa does ressemble UNC
Iowa likes to brag about their top ranked defense, saying that Tech hasn’t seen anything like it. Well UNC’s defense is ranked even higher. Throw away the record and look at the teams.
oh my God...
We’re about to see 50 Iowa fans explode from rage… I don’t think we’ve dealt with a fan base with such a chip on its shoulder since… our own fan base.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
I thought you guys were smart
but you’re all data heads. Too bad. No art majors in this group I can see. I actually think Paul Johnson would dislike you guys. He doesn’t even script his plays. You guys would be lost on his team.
By the way, if you were playing Boise State, by your own criteria, you wouldn’t even show up to the game.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
bitter much?
CPJ actually plays the numbers game. He uses percentages to determine play calls all the time sort of like baseball coaches using certain pitchers/hitters.
I think the deeper issue is why you’re so angry about football analysis…
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.
PJ disagrees with you
"I’ve never understood having your plays written down [scripted, in other words]. I just try to look out there and see what the defense is doing and calls plays accordingly. It’s not like, ‘I’ve got nine plays here — I’ve got to use them.’ If one play’s working, I might call it until they stop it."
I don’t think calling the same play over and over again is “about percentages” as much as feel. He is a kind of football artist. You guys are statisticians and you’re doing what Freud called “”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection" target="new">projection" here.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
projection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
That quote
supports the contention that he calls plays based on the situation rather than planning what he’s going to do ahead of time.
He clearly plays the odds. That’s why he goes for it on fourth down so often. He calls plays based on what’s actually happening, not “conventional wisdom”.
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